christastrophe ([info]christastrophe) wrote,
@ 2008-08-27 11:18:00
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and an ice tea would be nice as well
I try to be empathetic in situations like these and think about what I would be doing had Obama lost the nomination. But I look at videos like this and I just don't know what to do with myself.

And maybe there's a part of that which, ultimately, is the magical thing about politics. It's so great to see, for the first time in our lifetimes, candidates in a race that can actually bring out real human emotions other than angry confrontation (we have that all the time). There's a part of me that finds it really spectacular that Hillary Clinton supporters are crying this hard.

Of course, if the roles were reversed and this was an Obama delegate crying this hard, the story would be about the Obamessiah's Cult of Personality Kool Aid Jim Jones Hah hah ahaa. But it's Clintards, so it's about Respect and Closure.

The thing is, the hard fact is, there is literally nothing that can be done for these people. Nothing. There is nothing Clinton can say, nothing Obama can say that has not been said that will help these people. The only thing Obama can say that will make them feel better is, "I'm a stupid Doodyhead and Hillary is the President forever I quit." And that would make sense, because that is the emotional level we're dealing with here.

Yes, it is sad. But, if you're a Hillary Clinton supporter, as she said last night, WHY were you a Hillary Clinton supporter? Because if it's for any, y'know, issues, helping John McCain get elected is a really dumb way of acting out. And make no mistake, this is acting out.

I mean, the thing about this video up there, and of all interviews like it, and pretty much every post at No Quarter, is that it's not like Obama is Tom DeLay or something, like the choice is between two big mean Conservative Men. This Clinton supporter up there goes on and on about how she dreamed of a greener economy and better health care and all of that is GONE NOW, GONE!

Well, it's not gone. President Barack Obama will deliver it to you. But he can't do that if you vote for John McCain, or stay home on voting day. So then you can keep crying your thousands of tears for the loss of your green economy, for the loss of your health care and your international reputation, and you'll have only yourself to blame, you selfish pig.

*****

Wow, this post degenerated quickly, huh?

*****

I can't mask it, man. This election is too important, and I try to be empathetic but the global realities being what they are it just seems really silly that we have to stand around in one place and hold these people's little hands. It's like we're being chased by a werewolf, and our eight year old son is crying because we left his blanket in the car, and he refuses to run and GODDAMMIT, KYLE, GET YOUR ASS IN GEAR BEFORE THE WEREWOLF EATS OUR FUCKING FACES.

"No. I'd rather get my face eaten off by the werewolf than live life without - AAAAH! MY FACE!! WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO MEEEE!!!!"

And, like, I'd feel less passionately about this if this was some kind of a hypothetical, like we didn't have incredibly recent history to compare this to. Think of, oh, 2000, and all those selfish asshole Nader voters who said, "Gore and Bush are basically the same person". Well, idiots, they're not basically the same person. President Gore, after being impeached for allowing 9/11 to happen, would never have authorized the War in Iraq, because he was impeached. President Lieberman would have, after nuking Iran.

This isn't insignificant. I don't want to be werewolf food. The difference between supporting Obama and apathy/active support of McCain is the answer to the question, "Do you want your children to go to war against Iran, China, and Russia?" Because, make no mistake, THAT WILL HAPPEN. Who do you think is gonna be in McCain's cabinet, Clintards? D'ya think it might be Bill Clinton? Perhaps Hillary, and that nice Howard Wolfson? Or, more realistically, perhaps all the old war hawks that John McCain has been working alongside for years. Who knows? Maybe a few guys can even keep their current offices, just for convenience sake.

I understand bitterness, and I understand the loss involved and how a period of disappointment and mourning is normal. But that's about as far as I can go. Anything beyond that is just plain old selfishness or projection.

And recognizing the projection is important here. Because there is no policy reason to support Clinton and not Obama. If you're a Clinton supporter, pretty much all of your policies will still be intact with a President Obama. So what's the problem? Experience? They said the same thing about Bill, which I'm sure you ignored. SO what then?

Oh, right. The Lady thing.

Look, I'm not gonna pretend here. I know I'm not an Obama guy because of ideology (in that department I'm a Russ Feingold type of liberal bruiser). Obama is too centrist for me, but I like him for the most part, and I won't pretend - I love that he's Black. I love the idea of a minority in the White House. I won't deny that it makes me feel good. I'd love to be a Mexican with a Black man in the White House. Do you even KNOW how great it feels to be walking around Bed-Stuy and seeing Obama signs in the store windows, Obama buttons sod on the street? Obama signs and shirts being air-brushed like he's Michael Jordan or something. It's great, man. And I won't deny that, had he lost, I'd be grumbling about racism. Hell, I'm still grumbling about racism just because he's not polling as well as he should.

There is some discussion of this in some places, and I think it merits some real attention because it's important. And it's not even meant to diminish Hillary Clinton's accomplishments or the reasons people backed her. But if you look at her supporters, one demographic refuses to budge toward Obama: middle-aged women. And the most current Gallup poll showed a drop in married women.

Ladies, let's not pretend.

We know why you're mad. We know why you cry. You're not crying because Clinton's health plan called for full universal coverage and Obama's fell short of that. You're not crying over differences in Iranian diplomatic policy.

And I say that out of respect, because it's more real. Realer than the issues, even. When you see something of yourself in a public figure, in a movement, it's hard to tear away. Travis wrote an exceptional post, which I agree with entirely, on how being from San Antonio makes you identify yourself with the Spurs, so it absolutely crushes you when they lose and it makes you invincible when they win.

Without this sort of projection, we're nothing (and by We, I mean artists and consumers of art). We need this connection.

The loss of The Presidency of Hillary Clinton isn't a disappointment because her policy papers are so great, it's because she's a woman, and having a woman President would have made these women feel great. Just like I feel great about a minority President. We need to admit that and talk about that more openly. Because there is no rational, policy-based reason to not support Barack Obama. It's all personal, and that shit has to fade. There has to be a point where these PUMA's and PUMA-lites have to just admit, their girl lost. Their girl ran a shitty, 20th Century campaign and were beaten by a team of really great political strategists who just straight up built a better mousetrap.



(Post a new comment)

Did you see TDS last night?
[info]special_karen
2008-08-27 04:25 pm UTC (link)
They had a lovely piece intercutting a PUMA group interview with advice from a child psychologist on how to handle children who were acting out. Play therapy and pets were the main advice.

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Re: Did you see TDS last night?
[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 04:30 pm UTC (link)
I saw your post on that, and was very sad that my computer doesn't like Daily Show videos (they use the latest version of Flash, which I can't download on my work computer b/c I don't have administrative rights). But, yes. Wonderful.

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Re: Did you see TDS last night?
[info]special_karen
2008-08-27 07:26 pm UTC (link)
This writeup of it has a great photo:

http://www.tvworthwatching.com/blog/2008/08/democratic-national-convention-1.shtml

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alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]squibbohere
2008-08-27 04:54 pm UTC (link)
nice points, but i think it's a huge mistake to pull the political equivalent of the angry parent walking away from their crying child in the mall. they didn't want hillary because she was a woman, they wanted her because of what she made them feel about themselves. she made them feel like the possibility existed that all the shit that they put up with as women may fall away a little.

it's the same thing i feel with obama. i don't know the first thing about either's policies, but i know the black dude knows what it feels like to be followed around by the store detective. women may have felt that hillary knows what it feels like for men to minimize their feelings to simplistic impulses.

the problem is that the DNC hasn't done a very good job of figuring out what this voter block loved about hillary and engaging it in an effective manner. they have some of the formal entrapments...they paraded a bunch of ladies out in front of everybody...but they haven't dealt with the complex emotion that brings a voter to their candidate. and if they don't think that's worth doing, worth doing everything they can to get this difficult-to-move voter block on board, see you in 2012.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 05:08 pm UTC (link)
But that's the deal: what is that "thing" they need to do? What magical thing, short of making Hillary the nominee, will please these people? I mean, we're talking about the same sort of thing as far as gender/race identity politics, and I recognize the potency of that. But how much coddling do these people need? They got their Hillary Night, their Hillary Tribute video, their intro from Chelsea, their thirty minute speech from Bill. What else do they want?

I guess what really bugs me about this is that Mike Huckabee's supporters don't need this kind of coddling. While Hillary Clinton's supporters are whining about how mistreated they are and how their emotions aren't being dealt with, Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney's supporters are going to be putting McCain in office, and I think that's horse shit.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]squibbohere
2008-08-27 05:16 pm UTC (link)
i think that's exactly the problem. you and others are looking at it as coddling. they should be looking at it as selling. all those things, the video, chelsea, billy, those are the surface. they need to work on the concepts. they need to dig down with people, get past the "who" and get to the "what". then transfer that what to obama. if it were as easy as using the who (hill, bill, chelsea) it woulda been a done deal by now.

you ask them ten questions. the answer to the first 8 are "hillary". the last two, they actually tell you something. build off the last two.

looking at this as putting the onus on those voters is pure failure. they are not going to move by themselves. so if you want those votes, you have to work your ass off for it, especially if they could be the difference.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 06:18 pm UTC (link)
(I brought up the convention appearances because lots of people complained about Hillary not having a prominent enough role in it. Initial planning was adapted to address these concerns.)

And I believe that Obama's team will do more work to sell the candidate and convince Clinton voters that their views line up with his. Because they do. I agree that the Obama campaign should continue to sell their stances on family issues, women's issues, education, and health care; issues that are important to Clinton voters that are pretty much identical to Obama's views.

But, like we've both said, there are a lot of people who don't care about this stuff who were only in it because a middle-aged white woman who looked like them was running for President, and they liked being in the girls club. And, like we both said, that's very important to how a candidate feels to you. But Barack cannot transform himself into a white woman. And, frankly, if Hillary herself throwing her support behind Obama isn't enough for them, then I don't know what the rest of the DNC can do.

Again, the word of Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney was enough for their supporters. They didn't stand around stamping their feet, demanding that McCain sell himself better. And if, on the eve of our invasion of Iran, Clinton supporters can still live with that, good for them. I guess.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]popelizbet
2008-08-27 06:46 pm UTC (link)
I kind of wish everyone would quit referring to Hillary and Hillary supporters as "girls".

A minor irritation given the bigger issues, but true.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 06:54 pm UTC (link)
Sorry - a direct reference to the "Girls Night Out" shirt my mother got when she voted for Tha Hillz.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]popelizbet
2008-08-27 06:58 pm UTC (link)
No, it's fair.

I just heard a LOT of that during the campaign and it fills me with teh feminist rage. I went to a single-sex institution that was very insistent on referring to us as "young women" rather than "girls", trying to prepare us to see the sexism in being called "girls" well past the age of majority, and it just makes me grit my teeth to see a senator and her supporters called "girls" even if they self-label that way. Girls aren't old enough to vote. :D

...and for the record, I don't like it any better when women do it than men. It's not cute. It's demeaning and it allows people to put you more easily into a cute, pink, ruffly box instead of taking you seriously.


Again, just a personal peeve, not hating on you or angry at your points or anything.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 07:05 pm UTC (link)
It's all good. My mother always taught me to use the term "lay-tees" and lower my sunglasses respectfully when addressing a woman.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]popelizbet
2008-08-27 07:08 pm UTC (link)
Hee. "Young ladies" is what we got called when we had guests or we were in big trouble.

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]motolove
2008-08-27 07:20 pm UTC (link)
i hate it when the two of you are serious.

boobies!

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 07:23 pm UTC (link)
Boobies! Not the best word to bring up when discussing the misogyny directed at he Clinton campaign!

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]motolove
2008-08-27 07:27 pm UTC (link)
excuse me but my support of boobies is hardly misogynistic.

but fine.

'balls!'

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Re: alright, i'm leaving....i'm walking away....goodbye...
[info]squibbohere
2008-08-28 05:10 am UTC (link)
to be fair, huckabee and romney supporters are morons. they could tell those people to fuck dogs for the good of the country and they would.

obviously, you can feel whatever awful thing you want to feel about these people and how they are ruining the election. to me, the real problem is with the DNC. they should have taken it as a given that these people were going to be a hard sell. they had pretty good advance warning about this and they should have addressed it by now instead of nervously standing around waiting for hillary to fix it at the convention. they should have taken it as a given that this voter block was the highest risk area, the most critical area, and dropped everything and figured out a way to get to them.

they don't need to worry about john mccain voters voting for obama. they need to worry about clinton voters voting for mccain. as a representative figure, how many republican delegates voted against obama - all of them. how may dem delegates voted against obama - about half. if you've got all the republicans and half of the democrats voting against you, are you going to focus on independents and republicans or are you going to shore up your support so you don't lose it? obviously, dems will come to obama, but if we're still here talking about it, if these videos are popping up and the front page of yahoo is questioning if he made the wrong VP choice, this is not settled and it's not good for the party.

it makes no sense to me. they were aware of this high risk and they did not manage it. if you can get people to use their hard earned money to buy a hamburger that is practically poison and guaranteed to ruin your life, you can get die hard hillary supporters to stop crying and vote for obama.

bottom line, turning your back on these people is a big mistake for the party. they have every right to make whatever vote they're going to make. it's the party's job to convince them to make the right one.

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[info]12gaugestring
2008-08-27 05:04 pm UTC (link)
oh hey also john mccain is probably going to win

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[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 05:14 pm UTC (link)
I keep imagining this scenario where Viggo Mortensen shows up with these boats of dead skeleton warriors at the very end, and they all vote for Obama.

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[info]12gaugestring
2008-08-27 06:25 pm UTC (link)
if you are gonna call him viggo and not aragorn (or strider) then its never gonna happen

seriously though, i keep saying this and being scared to death that it is true: all the people that elected george w bush to 2 terms are not dead, and the vast majority of them (that can be convinced to vote that way) are not going to be convinced to vote for a democrat.

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[info]special_karen
2008-08-27 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Despite the fact that when asked about policy in the absence of attached personality, most Americans actually agree with Barack Obama and disagree with John McCain.

But no. God forbid we put one of them nasty liberals in the White House.

I'm scared to death, too, except my fear is turning into rage all of a sudden. Gotta check that.

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Rage on!
[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 07:11 pm UTC (link)
"You know what I'd love? I'd love a big round piece of dough with all this tomato sauce on it. And then some grated cheese and some really thinly sliced pieces of spicy sausage, and bake that whole thing for fifteen minutes."
"Oh, you want a pepperoni pizza? Coming right up."
"A PIZZA???? OH HOLY GOD - Rush Limbaugh told me those were completely horrible. Nevermind. Give me that bag of fish heads."

(munch munch munch)

"Wow - these fish heads are horrible. Sure wish I had that dough/sauze/cheese thing."

/scene

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Re: Rage on!
[info]squibbohere
2008-08-28 05:13 am UTC (link)

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[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 06:53 pm UTC (link)
No no. In my head it's Viggo rolling up in a pair of jeans.

I don't think I'll ever understand that mindset of the cushy center, those people who voted for Bush but then decided they didn't like him (dropping him to low 20's approval ratings). Like, he didn't drop any big surprises on us in 2005 or anything, and now they like McCain. Jay Leno has something to do with this.

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[info]motolove
2008-08-27 07:26 pm UTC (link)
maybe, except the margin that pushed Bush across the line both times was the extreme right wing religious folks who were always driven to the polls locally by state-wide conservative push button issues (usually a gay marriage law) that Rove made happen in swing states like Ohio and Florida.

I really think that McCain isn't going to engender that same type of turnout, so it really isn't about those folks voting for Obama, but rather, not voting at all.

believe me, I am nervous too. but i also think that Obama has a ton of money he's about to spend. and he just spent a week in Hawai'i, which always leaves me relaxed and ready to rumble. I think he is going to take the high road for as long as he is able (about another half-week) and then unleash a litanny of commercials that morph Bush's face into McCain's so effectively that in our minds we won't be able to tell them apart.

oh, and 'boobies'.

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[info]sharonsmom
2008-08-28 11:00 am UTC (link)
Photobucket <--- like this?

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[info]popelizbet
2008-08-27 06:45 pm UTC (link)
I won't lie. It hurts.

I never had too much of a connection to HRC. I grew up hearing how she was the devil's consort, pretty much, but I grew out of that, and I admit, it was validation of something I kind of never believed would happen, that the people who told me someday a woman would be President hadn't been lying to me all along.

It felt good. But I knew at the outset that if Sen. Obama won, I'd vote for him.

But it still felt bad. Felt bad to see all the sexism on both sides. Felt bad to see the media give her shit for everything from her cleavage to her tears. Felt bad to see a potential candidate for the Presidency called a bitch by a fellow candidate with barely a murmur; felt even worse that he was allowed to go on TV and explain to us that no, really, it's okay to call some women bitches. Felt like shit. Felt like all those other people who have reminded us through time that a woman can't get a fair shake no matter what she does were right. (Not that the racism directed at Obama made me feel fuzzy or anything, naturally, and not that some of the things directed at him haven't also made me feel like shit despite (and sometimes because of) my whiteitude.)

And it still feels bad. Feels bad that the pattern of the Presidency will likely follow the pattern of the franchise. Feels bad that so many who support Obama feel the need to tear down Clinton.

Unlike some people, my bad feeling is not turning into contrarian urges to cut off my nose to spite my face. I'll do my bit for Obama. I'll stand behind him.

I won't forget HRC, though.

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[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 07:01 pm UTC (link)
Agreed totally. I guess the best I can say is that I agree totally, even if I'm not a big fan of Hillary Clinton. Like I've written on here repeatedly, there are only two pictures on my desk: my wife, and Ann Richards.

You bring up an interesting point, and its one that unfairly falls on the shoulders of the Obama campaign now (which, to be honest, adds to my frustration). Obama is paying for Chris Matthews' sins, which is a shame since he's sharing his life with such a strong woman.

What really sucks is that, whoever ended up winning, there was gonna be a losing side that was left lamenting how "America will never elect a ___________ for President". And now the prospect of a white guy taking the whole thing anyway, so we can ALL be miserable.

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[info]popelizbet
2008-08-27 07:06 pm UTC (link)
Oh, for me it's not a "never", it's a "someday, but maybe not in my lifetime now". But I see the Presidency following the pattern of the franchise, and I know from history how those promises of "let us get it first and we'll help you get it" tend to not work out in the end. Still, I see Michelle Obama, and I think "Hey, it seems like she wouldn't settle for a sexist ass. Maybe it'll be OK."

If he wins and she runs later, I'll die of happiness.

Ann Richards was a lady and a brilliant politician. What I wish in my secret heart is that Barbara Jordan had lived. What a candidate she would have made.

/sigh

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[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 07:21 pm UTC (link)
Dude - Barbara Jordan and Ann Richards on a ticket would have killed every motherfucker in the room by now.

I could live with sixteen years of Presidents Obama/Clinton. I want to see a women President before I die. I think there's a good chance of that in the next couple of generations (who knew Obama five years ago?)

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[info]popelizbet
2008-08-27 07:24 pm UTC (link)
I would have venerated the Jordan/Richards (or vice versa) ticket as a gift directly from Fathernheaven. McCain couldn't say dick about either of them, unless he tried to make fun of Ann for being in recovery.

Barbara Jordan is my inspiration. (I've often thought of getting a framed photo of her for my office, to balance out the "civil war generals" theme in some of the rest of the place.) I think I just might, now.

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i have too much packing to be smart
[info]ikanread
2008-08-27 07:42 pm UTC (link)
but i would vote for michelle obama. does that solve everything?

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Re: i have too much packing to be smart
[info]christastrophe
2008-08-27 08:00 pm UTC (link)
I would vote for Michelle Obama for President of the Entire Damned World in a heartbeat. Holy crow, that woman is awesome.

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Re: i have too much packing to be smart
[info]ikanread
2008-08-27 09:05 pm UTC (link)
her speech gave me goosebumps and got me teary and the whole bit. granted, i am sometimes a sap, but it was so on the mark, i gave a little "whoop!" in my living room. she kicks so much ass, she's like the michael jordan of women or something.

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[info]supergoober
2008-08-28 03:24 am UTC (link)
So, OK. I supported Obama from the beginning because I'm over the inherited Presidency thing. Personally, I thought it should have been Hillary instead of Bill the first time around, but it wasn't, and now it's done.

However. It would be really, really nice if Obama would add something to his policy speeches and positions that had anything at all to do with the realities of women's lives. He would have to work harder than Hillary did to find the connection with middle-aged female Democrats, but it's really just a matter of saying, "I know what you're going through, it's important as a matter of national interest, and here's what I plan to do about it." He could talk about equal pay, he could talk about day care, he could talk about family leave, or he could talk about some new plan to make sure that men who treat women like crap get smacked up the head sideways. I mean, anything. I'm not saying that as a disappointed Hillary supporter - I didn't support her - but it does get old listening to debate after debate in election after election that assumes that problems that affect "everyone" - i.e. men - are the only ones worth addressing.

Finally, I am sick to death of hearing about the woman and the black man. I cannot fathom why it matters so much; I just want to know how they think and what they want to do. However, that's just me, and I do understand that it's historic, and hearing my parents talk about it, I realize that it's generational. I grew up just knowing that a woman would be President someday and that a black man would, too. My parents FOUGHT for it. They marched and carried signs and slept on the Washington Mall. I can respect that. On both sides.

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[info]christastrophe
2008-08-28 02:09 pm UTC (link)


I guess that's the frustrating thing: he has been talking about these things (and they've been on his website forever), but the news could give half a crap and, as a result, people don't know that it's part of his agenda. The news only covers drama, they only cover the eight seconds where he takes a dig at McCain or whatever is the big stupid story of the day (drilling, tire gauges, houses, etc).

But I would be really, really surprised if he didn't emphasize all of these things tonight, when he knows he's got the country's attention. They're no dummies. And, like you, I really hope tonight is about making the case for himself, for what he can do and what his ideas are and not just soft talk about "history" or whatever.

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[info]supergoober
2008-08-28 08:44 pm UTC (link)
I decided after I posted that comment that it wasn't exactly true. Because the truth of what you're saying - that if Hillary had won it, the Obama supporters would be mad because "no way would America ever vote for a black man" the same way the Hillary supporters are convinced that the Presidency is the final glass ceiling - is pretty undeniable. Sometimes some things are just emotional and can't be unentangled from the past. And this particular win-win is also a lose-lose, so there you go.

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